Working on sleds in August?

So unlike me, I usually wait until it gets cold, then I have to rust to get stuff done...

Anyway last winter I tore the engine on the Pantera all apart and then lost interest since it snowed so much. Now I'm back to working on the tin.

Initially I tried to cheat this and paint it a bunch of times with high build primer and that did take out some of the rust pits but it would have taken a year of painting and sanding so I finally mixed up a bunch of bondo and filled the pits giving the whole surface a thin coat. I knocked that back and it it with the high build to fill the scratches from the 100 grit sandpaper I was using. Bondo clogs sandpaper bad but 100 grit works better. I need to knock back the primer with some 320 grit in a block and then I think I can prime it one more time and paint. I'm not looking for perfection here but something way better than what I had.

Need to do the pipe while I'm at it but I've found that high temp paint needs a good clean surface to stick to. I did my '70 Ski-Doo pipe back years ago and it just flaked back off quick...

Progress!

Finally got my shipment from Dennis Kirk so work can progress.

The puller that I bought for the Pantera doesn't fit perfectly, the smaller 6mm holes don't line up perfectly with the holes in the magneto. Fortunately the larger holes line up well enough that the 6mm (grade 8) bolts would thread into the magneto. I added a little grease to the pulling bolt to reduce friction, then tightened it up. The puller has a cool little rod to keep the engine from turning. Or rather it USED to have a cool little rod to keep the engine from turning, that promptly broke off.

I barely put any torque on it at all. So I put the rope back in the cylinder and whacked the end of the puller a couple times. Then added a little more tension and "CLANG!" I thought I'd broken the puller but:

The magneto popped right off. While I was on a roll I bought a #3 phillips head driver, chucked it into a 1/4" socket and pulled the screws holding the PTO side plate on. I'd tried with a #2 phillips before but I couldn't apply enough torque to break the screws free.
Now I need to haul the engine back into the basement to replace the seals.

After taking the dog for a walk I went back to the Wankel Panther. I cleaned the mag side crank shaft really well and lubed it with axle grease, I also greased the shaft and held the o-ring in place with yet a little more grease.

I briefly considered some hylomar for holding the o-ring but was to lazy to go back into the house for it. The grease will melt out the first time the engine gets good and warm and won't cause any trouble. There was no o-ring there at all before so this has to be better...

The grease kept the o-ring in place perfectly allowing for easy installation which I strangely didn't get a picture of.

Getting the stator in place correctly took more time than I would have expected. I managed to get it not seated fully on one side which made the magneto hit, glad I rolled it over a few times before I buttoned everything back up. It turned out I had some wires trapped, once I got those aligned correctly everything went together easy.

I quit while I was ahead since I couldn't find my multi-meter. I want to check to be sure the points are opening before I button up the engine.

Not so bad as all that

Here's the finale from yesterday's debacle:

Its not much but that little charred end is what was holding the piston in place. I tried burning the end off but couldn't get enough heat to soften it enough. In the end I pulled the tinwork and the head. I put a block of wood on top of the piston and whacked it a couple times with a hammer.

I'm not too upset about this whole deal, the engine is filthy, the exhaust gaskets were leaking and I think the head gasket on the PTO side (the one with the rope in it incidentally) was leaking too. I ordered a gasket set this morning which Dennis Kirk claims will be here by Friday. In the mean time I have plenty of cleaning to do.

This is the PTO side head, its not too dirty now but when I started there was a lot of mouse fluff in the fins, there was also a bunch of acorns in the space between the jugs, another good reason to get the engine out.

Thats the tin work from behind the exhaust, you can see its greasy nasty. I think the last person who worked on it (this'd be pre-2001 when Ed bought the sled) put both exhaust gaskets on the same side of the tinwork. Looking at it now I think the gaskets are supposed to sandwich the tinwork. Obviously I'll correct that when I put it back together.

Finally I've taken the topside tin and stripped it for paint. I debated not doing that but figure I ought to do it right while I have the time. Got lucky and the "Arctic Cat Spirit Powered" sticker came off whole so I can reuse it.

Laugh at the idiot

As you know I've been fighting the clutch on my '78 Pantera for some time now. I finally got a new spring and pucks (Comet Duster) installed and then the dang engine was sticky, it'd only rock back and forth some. I thought it was maybe just from sitting although it'd only been a year, so I squirted a little oil in each side and worked it back and forth and it free'd up. So I put the plugs back in and tried to fire it up which is when it stuck SOLID.

Uh oh.

Today I finally got the engine out and found:

I'd been using a piece of recoil rope to keep the engine from turning while I worked on the clutch, I guess a piece got cut off on one of the ports and stayed inside. When I rocked it back and forth it must had slid out of the port but when I cranked it over it found the exhaust port. Now the thing is stuck hard so I think the only way to get it out will be to lift the jug. Guess I'll do a full gasket set while I'm there, it probably ought to have crank seals anyway.

The smart folks over at Vintagesleds.com along with the smart guys on the Okiebenz email list suggested I burn out the rope. with the exhaust manifold removed I can get right at the end of the rope. With it burned out I'd be able to crank the engine over and get the other piece out too. I've got a pencil torch so I can be precise about it. We'll see, I will of course take a picture and report.

While I've got the engine out I've got some work to do in the engine bay:

Years of accumulation in there, step one will be the vacuum cleaner. Because the engine sits so low its very hard to clean underneath it...

Also for once I managed to do a pretty good job packaging the pieces I took out:

It'd be all to easy to lose one of the bolts for the recoil or motor mount and then have to scab something in that would never be quite right...

Pantera clutch pucks

Speaking of the Pantera I never did talk about the new clutch pucks. This is a Comet Duster 94 clutch, its an aftermarket clutch pretty common to these older sleds. Its actually not supposed to be a good match to my Pantera, its not really supposed to be used on sleds of more than about 40HP, the Pantera's engine is closer to 50HP but this clutch has been on it since my friend Ed bought the sled back in 2001 and everybody has always been happy with the clutch engagement so I figure even if I have to fart around with it every 13 years thats acceptable.

Here's the object in question:

The black one was taken from my sled, the white is a replacement. Notice the scar on the black one, I think thats from the time the sled was frozen to the ground and I tried to break it free with the engine. The way the clutch works is these pucks normally at the bottom of an incline plane. When the engine is revved up centrifugal force tries to force the outward up the slope. The clutch cover resists that since its bolted to the end of the crank. This forces the inclined plane in toward the engine, this causes the outer sheave of the clutch to grab the belt transferring rotational force from the engine to the belt and then onward to the secondary clutch and finally the track. The scar is from the side of the track the puck rides in.

On the scale this one is 23.3g which was essentially what they all were. New pucks are sold by weight with nothing around 23g. The next closest was 25g so thats what I ordered.

All the replacements come in around 25.4g which could just be variation attributable to my scale.

The problem I was fighting was a clutch which wouldn't disengage. I hope thats caused by the pucks not sliding back down the incline due to the scar. Just in case I also bought another stock size spring. Its possible that the old spring has lost some of its sproing and the replacement will do better.

This '78 Pantera is one of the best riding leaf spring sleds I've ever been on so I hope this fixes it. If it doesn't I do have one more trick. Randy scratched up and possibly bent the clutch cover getting it off without the proper puller. The clutch performance actually got worse after that debacle so if the new pucks and spring don't work out I'll get a nother cover and see if that helps.

New belt, fixes problems?

Stopped at Troy Arctic Cat the other day and picked up a new belt for the '78 Pantera. I was pleasantly surprised that they had one right in stock.

Its got some signs of having been on the shelf for a long time but I don't see anything wrong with it. I did get an email back from Carlisle saying they were surprised their belt didn't work and wanting to confirm both what I had on the sled previous and what the original spec was.

I spent some time with the 2 belts and realized that the Carlisle belt is about one inch smaller internal circumference than the Cat belt, interestingly the outside circumference is the same.

Today I got a note from Carlisle saying the MAX1107M3 is the correct belt, its apparently a half inch larger than the 1078, they're going to send one out. I'll give it a shot and let you know when I get it.

New belt, new problems...

You might remember last year when I had the Pantera frozen to the ground and had to tow it with the Cobra to get unstuck, you can read all the gory details here. Well in all that messing around I managed to put a flat spot on the belt. In looking at it you wouldn't think there was much, 2 teeth have a little spot worn off one edge but you can feel it any time you take off and that spot is on the engine side which is about half the time. So I figured we were due for a belt, I don't think I've ever put one on the sled so who knows how old it is.

I got Randy to order me a new Dayco MAX. The MAX series is their hardcore strong belts, figure I'll not need to worry about it for a good long time, its spendy but I really like this sled. I picked it up the other day and installed it yesterday.

I noticed that after I installed it the sled started hard, well thats odd... Rode a lap around the yard and then out to head to the trail. Got to the trailhead and stopped to adjust my helmet, when I did the sled quit. Thats odd too, this sled has been running very well. When I tried to restart I realized the engine was pulling over really hard. I pulled the new belt off and reinstalled the old one.

Got going again but the engine sounded BAD. Oh man, old gas and crud in the carb yet again. Oh well, turned around and headed for home. I'm happy to say I made it home without help but I was frustrated so I left the Cat and took the big Ski-Doo out instead.

Today I pulled the carb (brrr its cold!) and although it looked fine I cleaned it again, even took the jets out and ran them through my ultrasonic cleaner. Reinstalled and the sled started right up but still ran weird, didn't sound right and stalled out. Pulled the plugs and they were both wet. Put in new (well new to this sled) plugs and it started right up with no choke and ran great...

I posted about it on the VintageSleds board and got:

I ran into the same problem with a 85 El Tigre 6000.  The cogs on top of the belt seem to make the belt either shorter or wider and it engages the side of the clutch.  You will have to see if you can find a old stock belt.  I put the original back on.  If you have the dimensions of the new belt look for a slightly longer one.

He goes on to suggest  a Dayco HP3006 but hasn't actually used one himself. MFG Supply suggests a Dayco HP3012.

So now I'm all confused. Fortunately theres still some miles in the old Kimpex belt. I'll spend some time looking for one of those and maybe call Troy Arctic Cat and see what they suggest. If they can get a real Arctic Cat belt for not too much money I'll do that. With luck somebody will come on VintageSleds who has figured this one out.

Still at little snow left

In theory I have 4 out of 5 snowmobiles in running condition so today I decided to get them all going and lined up. I started with the '71 Arctic Cat Panther (the Wankle Panther) and was delighted when it fired right up. In fact during a quick ride around the yard it went better than ever before. I'm kicking myself now for not taking this sled when I went riding a few weeks ago. Its relatively light and has a fairly long track, I think it would have handled the deep soft snow well.
Second was the '78 Arctic Cat Pantera, again an easy start and as usual I'm delighted with how the sled rides, this is definitely one of my all time favorite snowmobiles.
Next I tried the '79 Polaris Cobra. You might remember this one being a brat a few weeks ago, last night I pulled the plugs and had spark on both sides but something told me that just having spark was only part of the picture. Today that was proved out, while I have spark I don't think the PTO side is giving good fat spark like it should. After some farting around I got the machine to run but not well and it wouldn't pick up RPM. After running 30 seconds the MAG side cylinder is warm to the touch while the PTO side is cool. I predict some time with Deoxit in my future.

Finally I tried the '95 Ski Doo Grand Touring, I'd had this running back in October and then when we first got snow but it was sidelined from that first snow by holes in the exhaust. A long afternoon of welding fixed the exhaust but I temporarily lost interest in the sled being distracted by my vintage machines. Surprisingly this sled fired up with barely a touch of the key. One of my favorite things about Ski-Doos is the push/pull primer that makes getting them started a snap which is why I put one on the Wankle Panther.

I knew getting the sled started was only half the battle, as you can see in the picture it was still pretty well buried and after the fight with the Pantera I knew the Ski-Doo would be frozen to the ground. What I didn't realize is how BADLY it would be frozen to the ground. With the cooling and re-freezing cycles we've been having each of the skis is contained in a solid block of ice. I let the sled run and warm up while I grabbed a shovel and dug around some but finally gave up. I'll let nature do its work and thaw the skis out naturally.

Triumphant return!

After Saturday's difficulties and knowing there wasn't much time left I thought maybe I could head out early enough in the day so I could avoid the wet snow problem. Sunday I was up early and hit the snow around 9am. I was right, freezing temperatures the night before made a crust on top that looked real good.

The stupid Polaris wouldn't go, the left carb was leaking at the fuel line which I fixed with an added zip tie but then it seemed to have iffy spark. I left it and pulled the Pantera off the trailer, it started on the first pull and off we went. This is actually home territory for the Pantera, I bought it from the guy who owns the land here.

I found that the crust gave me just the advantage I needed and as long as I kept moving things were okay. It took a great deal of effort to stay balanced and while riding standing up seemed to offer and advantage I actually did best while sitting down. At first I just rode near the house but gradually got more adventurous until I was out on the big trails. The area near the house hadn't been ridden but people had walked the trail and packed down a nice path. I followed that down to a good turn around spot and returned just to make sure I could. I was nervous about the transition from my friend's land to the trails, theres a steep drop off and a mistake here would leave us stuck, stuck... The return went alright so I headed back out to the trails, this time I screwed up leaving and managed to stick the cat:

The hard crust was hiding powder underneath and ice under that, once you loose momentum its tough to get going again. I did managed to get loose with relatively little effort by following a trick I'd mostly forgotten. These old sleds have not much rear suspension and usually get hung up on the footboards. The trick to getting out is to stand and shift your weight side to side squashing the snow (in this case dry powder) out from under the boards, then inch forward and rock some more, then again. Finally with a blast of power I broke free.
Beyond where I'd turned before I found a track where a 4wheeler had ridden. It was much easier riding where he had already broken trail so I followed his tracks. Unfortunately the old Pantera is narrower than the 4wheeler so I was constantly being thrown side to side but as long as I kept the speed down it was never a real issue.
I was more concerned about walkers and dogs. The last thing I want to do is have an accident so I was looking way ahead and keeping my speed low. I was surprised how close I could get to people before they seemed to notice me, in most cases I saw them well before they saw me. Most dogs seem completely unconcerned by the sled, its like they know I don't want to bother them and they let me alone.

Anyway one trail I got on had particularly deep snow, the 4wheeler was clearly dragging its belly pan and while I really wanted to follow that particular trail through to go back to my friend's house, when I found the 4wheeler's turn around spot I figured I'd be smart to do the same.

On the way back to the house I found some areas I'd ridden over twice which were now packed down nicely and I could really make some speed over. This caught me when I headed into an area I'd only been over once and a particularly big bump caught me by surprise and tossed me completely off the machine. Fortunately as we parted ways I hit the kill switch and the sled stopped just a few yards from me. I'd been buffered by the snow and wasn't injured other than a small scrape. A good reminder to be careful out there!

By noon the weather had warmed considerably, the thermometer at home said 60 degrees although I suspect that was a bit optimistic. I could smell the heat of the Pantera's engine and while I was having a grand time I didn't want to push my luck. My friend helped me load the Cobra which would run but wasn't running well, I suspect one set of points isn't as clean as I'd like it to be which would explain somewhat the difficulties starting it. The Pantera was even somewhat reticent to start which is a sure sign of it being warm out so I knew I'd made a good choice.

In total I rode about 10 miles which for modern machines on a nice groomed trail is nothing but for an antique on a goat path is a big deal. We will definitely be back again next year, the area by my friend's house was recently logged and they've made a very nice area for sledding. I love blasting around a big field with friends so for sure next year I'll have my fleet of relics out there!

Good and good

So the snow-quester was a washout in DC but it hit north central MA pretty good. We got our 4-6 inches of wet sloppy snow. After work Friday I rushed home and fired up the mighty Polaris Cobra. It starts kind of hard so I'm guessing it needs a little more carb work but its good enough for now. I rode around the Pantera a little to pack down the snow then got that sled uncovered and started and into the garage where I pulled the carb AGAIN. I hate doing a job over again but I clearly hadn't done a good enough job last time. This time I remembered my carb cleaning rods and rodded out every jet. I found a big chunk of schmutz in one of them which was comforting. Its a little un-nerving when you clean and don't find anything obvious. With the carb reinstalled the sled fired right up and idled perfectly.

After having such success with the carb I replaced one of the hood hold down straps, it'd broken a couple years ago and when I ordered new points for the Cobra I noticed replacement straps and ordered a set. Surprisingly the bolt holding the broken strap came right out, I thought it would fight me.

The replacement strap is very tight, with any luck it will stretch a little. Because of that and because the other side isn't broken I left it alone, I'll keep the other strap in reserve.

The oatmeal like snow we've got is not great for the Pantera, its short track wants to dig and slip on the ice under the snow, the Cobra's long track rides up better than the Cat. That said you can better your sweet whatever I'm going to get out and ride, fresh snow this late in the season is a gift I'm not going to turn down. As soon as I post this I'm going to cut the old sticky hitch off my snowmobile trailer, run to the parts store and get some bolts for the replacement I'd bought before Christmas, with that installed I'll need to figure out how to load the sleds alone which is a challenge but I think I can use the snow bank to my advantage...

Arctic Cattin around

My '78 Arctic Cat Pantera has been sitting for a couple weeks now, I took it for a ride after our first snow of the season and on the way back decided to open it up and "blow out the cobwebs". That turned out to be a big mistake, as soon as I got to full throttle the sled bogged and died. I got it started again but didn't get far before it quit again. Rinse, lather, repeat.
Finally I called Angie to come get me and we towed the sled home the last half mile with the pickup. What an inglorious way to arrive. The sled restarted easily and seemed to be back to running normally until I once again went for full throttle. This time when it died it stayed that way.

Finally today I got a chance to get out and clean the carb, in doing so I found a mouse nest in the airbox. Clearly when I went for full power I pulled crud into the carb... Wasting no opportunity I shot a video as I cleaned, hopefully in a week or two I'll have it up here for you to see.

So now the sled runs, it doesn't idle well though, I can't tell if thats watery gas or if I didn't get the idle jet clean enough. I may just run it a little more and see if it cleans itself up.

Another one back from the dead!

Christmas Eve eve I went over to Ed's and finished the deal for his '77 Pantera. Angie has wanted this sled since Ed hauled it home so when I heard he was looking to get rid of it I knew I should get it. Unfortunately it had sat out for a year and wouldn't start so we manhandled it into the truck and I dropped it off at home. The yesterday I finally manhandled it into the garage. There wasn't any gas in the filter so I started by cutting away all the gas lines and rebuilding the pump. The kit I'd bought for the pump was too small but I cleaned everything good and put in new check valves, then put it back in the sled with all new gas lines. Before I connected it to the carb I pulled the engine over a couple times to prove the pump was pumping which it was.


Today I connected the carb and free'd up the slide which was sticky but the sled still wouldn't go. I shot some starting fluid down the plug holes and the sled fired right up which at least proved it COULD run. So I pulled the carb, the bowl was completely empty and the needle was sticky so I shot some carb cleaner into it until it moved reliably, cleaned everything good and put it back together. 5 pulls later and it fired right up. It took a good 5 minutes for the goo to work through and get to where the sled would idle correctly and get good throttle response.


I also had to spend some time to free up the brake too, I think it was just frozen but I pulled the cable and shot some oil in until it moved good. Once the engine warmed up the brake light even worked properly.
The only real issue with the sled is that the trunk door is missing. I know its at Ed's house somewhere but we couldn't find it. I'll look again in the spring.

Before getting the sled running today I made the trip down to Worcester and found the snowmobile/boat/atv registry. Hint its in an unlabled building... The lady was very nice and now both the Pantera and Grand Touring are legal to ride in MA. Now all we need is snow...